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October 3, 2009 6:44 am  #11


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

But Macedonia isnt a regoin of Greece,right?


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October 4, 2009 7:14 pm  #12


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

Jeremy wrote:

As most here know, our country facts, including the country names we use, come from the CIA's World Factbook.  The U.S. refers to Macedonia as... Macedonia.  As a U.S. based business, we plan to follow their lead.  I'm sure there's some strong feelings on both side of this issue.

I don't recall anymore but what was the name used alongside Macedonian flag on FC before? Cause now it's the "long one" which isn't in CIA's World Factbook 

 

October 4, 2009 9:42 pm  #13


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

nuriel8833 wrote:

But Macedonia isnt a regoin of Greece,right?

Yes, it is not The country is a former part of Yugoslavia. It gained independency in 1991.

But there is Macedonia which is a geographical and historical region of Greece in southeastern Europe. Greece opposes the post-1991 constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), citing the lack of disambiguation between it and the adjacent Greek region of Macedonia. Greece also objects to the undisambiguated use of the term Macedonian for the neighbouring country's main ethnic group and language.
For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

 

November 4, 2009 1:05 am  #14


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

Of course us Europeans & Americans we would ask what's in a name? Well a lot if you are Greek and Macedonian. I have been amazed by how in the Balkans the sense of nationalism has increased over the years. In this dispute,  though, I think that the biggest right in general goes to Greece really. As usually Bush was wrong to name it Macedonia already.

Macedonian identity was created starting the beginning of this century by the Yugoslavian government under Tito. It was done so, so that the Yugoslavs could have the land which was populated by Bulgarians mostly and Serbians and to stop the irrententist claims of Bulgaria. which wanted some of today's region of FYROM. After the independence of the country the state called itself Macedonia and the Greeks opposed it, not only for the name but because they had drawn official maps of all of the region macedonia (bulgarian & greek included). It was too bad they couldn't find a solution at the beginning because afterwards it gets worse.
The ultranationalists come into power and they make things worse, who they were never going to back off or negotiate. Claims that they are descendants of Alexander the Great and the ancient macedonians arose! They started fabricating history which of course they had done in the times they were still with yugoslavia, but now even more. Learning those things in school and other various mediums, they also showed provocative anti-greek campaings. Greece in the meantime did a 10 month embargo in '93 to end it but it backfired causing more national fanatism!  And then there was a war between Albanians and Macedonians in 2001, because Albanians felt suppressed, which ended rather quick. UN was present there, to keep the peace, and did not do anything on those lies the government was saying about macedonian heritage, they allowed I guess.
The dispute remains unresolved and then Bush goes and renames FYROM to macedonia in 2004. Why? Because it remained democratic, although this was and is not truly democratic the propaganda for a fake identity continued daily and other regular propagandas, another fabulous decision from mister president. Then other countries started naming it Macedonia, because what is there in a name for them? Macedonian goverment starts then to provoke with statues of alexander being build renaming the airport after Alexander and so on.
In 2008 before the NATO conference, Greece stated that a North or Upper or New Macedonia will be ok for them but they won't go any  lower. No agreement, and that resulted to the veto of Greece against FYROM in april 2008 for entering NATO. As it is now FYROM government does not want to change its name, only some parties agree with the Greeks in order to go into NATO and EU. The macedonia governement is on EU's and some other nations black book now since it won't accept the Greek offer.

There is fear of war expressed on cameras between Albanians and Macedonians, because albanians want to go into NATO and accept the Greek offer for a regional indication on top of macedonia.  In reality its the FYROM fault if there is a war for persisting so much.
Negotiations don't have clearcut winners and losers. The Macedonian government is trying still to hold out the most right now with no ambition to resolve the debacle or to enter NATO or EU. I think they are doing the whole unstable country argument to put pressure on the Greek government to accept the name as it is.The  chance of war is minimal because Albanians know that if they go to war then UN will come back and put them even more back on their schedule for nato and maybe lose some privileges they have nowadays!

Last edited by Dutchman (November 4, 2009 1:49 am)

 

November 22, 2009 10:13 am  #15


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

How a Country must be called in a different language is not a decision of a third State. The question of FYROM instead of Macedonia is just a Greek matter, not world's matter.
In Belgium there is a region called Luxembourg at the border with Luxembourg (Independent State); in Italy there is South-Tyrol close to Austrian Tyrol; in the USA there is New Mexico close to Mexico; in India there is Western Bengala close to independent Bangladesh (meaning "Eastern Bengala"). The examples may continue.
Macedonia is called Macedonia/Makedonia since 3,000 years (much before the arrival of Greeks and Slavs) and even if sometimes diplomacy request the use of FYROM in a placard, I think there is no reason to call differently the Country of Alexander the Great.

 

November 22, 2009 5:10 pm  #16


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

The Resolution 817/1993 of the UNO is quite clear.The name is FYROM and NOT Macedonia.

 

November 24, 2009 9:21 am  #17


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

koulitsa wrote:

The Resolution 817/1993 of the UNO is quite clear.The name is FYROM and NOT Macedonia.

UNO is not God. And, besides, it seems really a very funny question. In fact FYROM just means "Former Yugoslav Republic Of MACEDONIA" .
Thus, the name MACEDONIA is somehow contained inside this acronym and... should we use the word "Yugoslav" if Yugoslavia doesn't exist any longer 

Last edited by Pillandia (November 24, 2009 9:22 am)

 

December 8, 2009 10:04 pm  #18


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

How a country should be named normally is a national matter not an international but what is happening in the republic of Macedonia is extraordinary. As said before the identity was starting to be created in the early 20th century because of the Serbs and it took full force under Tito it is not based on anything substantial and it is not self-discovered. So another country decided the identity of today's FYROM already . Also if someone were to google solun + united macedonia then he will see that ethnic Macedonians have wishes to take the Greek and Bulgarian region of macedonia. And even if they are not able to attack Greece or Bulgaria who can guarantee that there will be peace in the future if those ideas hold. So it is better that those thorns are out of the way.
Besides many times I have heard in the news that the national identity of this country is wobbly, thus there was no strong identity before the indepedence. That is what you get when you take a regional definition and you try to make it an ethnic one . Tens of thousands ethnic macedonians accepted the Bulgarian passport by denying their Macedonian identity, whether they believe they have Bulgarian origin remains a question.
On the other hand the people residing there are an ethnic mix. The self-proclaimed Macedonians are just 64-66% of the country according to 2002, actually then republic of macedonia should not be named like this cause all the others are not ethnic Macedonians and they will be left out. Belgium for example has 59% flemish, 40% wallonian, 1% german.
Pillandia, I understand that you come from this country and no offence but Alexander the Great was Macedonian Greek as Sophocles was Athenian Greek. All countries all over the world have books on the Greek origin of Alexander the Great. And the ancient kingdom of Macedonia was created from Greeks, it did not existed before.
The territory of republic of macedonia was in the times of Alexander the Great called Peonia, conquered by Alexander. And in the last century the territory was called Southern Serbia from 1913 Vardar Banovina from 1929 and from 1944 it took diverse names with macedonia in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_macedonia

I do agree that by accepting the name FYROM the Greek government is giving the signal that a final version will contain the word macedonia in it. I guess that the red line of Greece for macedonia with a quilifier was the supposed target or that the Greek politicians were obliged by the UN to find a provisional name fast. Though as Pillandia has putted it, in similar cases countries or region took a geographical notation at the end. Although sometimes the name was completly changed like when Great Britain was forced by France to change its name to United Kingdom because it had a region called Brittany. However this may lead, historical truths must not be the victim. To put it in another way, at the end Alexander the Great has also the right for self-determination, and he determine himself as Greek by heritage and bloodline and not only that but the spread of Greek culture on west Asia and Egypt proves it loud and clear.

Last edited by Dutchman (December 9, 2009 2:26 am)

 

December 9, 2009 8:27 am  #19


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

Dutchman wrote:

...sometimes the name was completly changed like when Great Britain was forced by France to change its name to United Kingdom because it had a region called Brittany...

...but the local inhabitants call themselves "British" instead of "Great-British" and their own Land "Britain" 
The question of MACEDONIA istead is in parallel with the matter of a country in Africa, which in October 1985 officially asked to be called "Côte d'Ivoire" (and in this way it is officially called in the UN), but still called Ivory Coast (Eng.), Costa d'Avorio (Ita.) or Elfenbeinküste (Ger.) in all Atlases.
There is no law that may stop a very popular custom.
And, besides, since more than a century the football team of the Netherlands is called worldwide with the wrong name of "Holland" and You also did choose the nickname "Dutchman" istead of "Netherlandsman" 

Last edited by Pillandia (December 9, 2009 8:28 am)

 

September 17, 2010 10:04 am  #20


Re: Macedonia / FYROM dispute

Balcan peninsula has always been a mix of tribes, different ethnities and so were the ancient Greek - no "pure" ethnity. So I don't understand how can nations in the West get over it and learn to share their past, while in the South-East they have to be so nationalistic. Was anyone alive 3,000 years ago to claim the ancient heritage?

 

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